Episode 177: Rivals to Allies

00:00:38.683 --> 00:00:40.783
Diego: Welcome to Geekology 101.

00:00:40.783 --> 00:00:42.023
Diego: My name is Diego.

00:00:42.163 --> 00:00:43.823
Joshua: And my name is Joshua.

00:00:44.323 --> 00:00:48.183
Diego: And Joshua's cheek is on fire from the smack I gave him a few minutes ago.

00:00:48.203 --> 00:00:48.523
Joshua: It is.

00:00:49.403 --> 00:00:49.843
Diego: It hurts.

00:00:50.603 --> 00:00:55.223
Diego: But it was necessary for the sake of really like embodying this episode.

...View Entire Transcript

00:00:55.243 --> 00:00:56.363
Joshua: I mean, I guess.

00:00:56.383 --> 00:00:57.563
Diego: Getting into the spirit of it.

00:00:58.103 --> 00:00:59.343
Diego: Yeah, I would do it all over again.

00:00:59.803 --> 00:01:01.203
Diego: Many times over and over.

00:01:01.223 --> 00:01:01.783
Joshua: Oh wow.

00:01:01.903 --> 00:01:02.323
Diego: Yeah.

00:01:02.803 --> 00:01:10.503
Diego: So, yeah, so today's episode is all about the story trope of going from rivals to allies.

00:01:10.963 --> 00:01:16.223
Diego: It's something that is pretty commonly used, I think, in different story types.

00:01:17.923 --> 00:01:22.943
Diego: I gotta be honest, man, this is personally, I think, one of my favorite story tropes out there.

00:01:24.423 --> 00:01:26.503
Joshua: I think it definitely is a good one.

00:01:26.803 --> 00:01:27.143
Diego: Why?

00:01:27.723 --> 00:01:35.923
Joshua: I feel like it can show how important like little things in a story are.

00:01:36.523 --> 00:01:46.663
Joshua: Like, because little things along the like pathway of a story along the plot can impact like two characters' perception of each other.

00:01:46.683 --> 00:01:48.643
Diego: That's true.

00:01:49.343 --> 00:01:54.723
Diego: Wait, you mean that little things could have taken them to the rivalry or that little things would take them from rivals to allies?

00:01:56.843 --> 00:02:03.983
Diego: Yeah, like an example of that, of something small, like being the thing that kind of takes two rivals to becoming allies?

00:02:04.303 --> 00:02:04.843
Joshua: I do.

00:02:05.183 --> 00:02:32.363
Joshua: In the example of Naruto and Gaara from the very small, not really mainstream anime called Naruto, in that very small show, those two characters, like say, for example, like the Chunin exams, those, the Chunin exams kind of, well, that's how they-

00:02:32.383 --> 00:02:35.143
Diego: The Chunin exams, is that like when they have to like tune a guitar?

00:02:35.163 --> 00:02:36.183
Joshua: No, Chunin.

00:02:36.203 --> 00:02:36.883
Diego: Is it a piano?

00:02:37.103 --> 00:02:37.923
Joshua: Chunin.

00:02:38.283 --> 00:02:39.083
Diego: Right, tuning, yeah.

00:02:39.743 --> 00:02:40.903
Joshua: Chunin exams.

00:02:42.863 --> 00:02:45.183
Diego: It still sounds like tuning to me for whatever.

00:02:48.283 --> 00:02:49.923
Diego: Sure, whatever you say, go ahead, keep going.

00:02:49.943 --> 00:02:58.683
Joshua: Okay, so in the Chunin, well, I mean, that's where they met, but also it's where they like gained respect for each other.

00:02:59.443 --> 00:03:06.983
Joshua: And having like just moderate respect for each other can like go a long way from-

00:03:07.043 --> 00:03:16.063
Joshua: Like, if you're somebody's rival, and then they do something and you're like, hmm, that's actually something that I respect.

00:03:16.083 --> 00:03:19.903
Joshua: That's something that that's a decision that I would have made or a decision that I agree with.

00:03:20.103 --> 00:03:20.463
Diego: Yeah.

00:03:20.843 --> 00:03:26.663
Joshua: Small things like that can go from being rivals to being allies.

00:03:26.743 --> 00:03:27.903
Diego: Yeah, I can see that.

00:03:27.923 --> 00:03:29.923
Diego: Were these two guys like in the same clan?

00:03:30.543 --> 00:03:32.643
Joshua: No, they were from-

00:03:32.663 --> 00:03:43.303
Joshua: Gara was from the Sand Village, Nartro was from the Leaf Village, and the Chuning Exams, they come to the Leaf Village to move up to the next rank.

00:03:43.623 --> 00:03:53.223
Diego: But in that setup, even though they're from different villages, are they all part of one same alliance overall or no?

00:03:53.963 --> 00:03:56.523
Diego: They're not rival villages.

00:03:56.543 --> 00:03:57.843
Joshua: No, they're not rival villages.

00:03:57.863 --> 00:03:58.343
Diego: Okay.

00:03:59.623 --> 00:04:04.583
Diego: So it ends up being kind of like a similar scenario to My Hero Academia then.

00:04:04.603 --> 00:04:05.683
Joshua: Yeah, definitely.

00:04:05.703 --> 00:04:16.983
Diego: Yeah, where it's like all part of one allied organization in the form of UA, but there's rivalries between the classes and stuff like that.

00:04:17.003 --> 00:04:17.323
Joshua: Yeah.

00:04:18.983 --> 00:04:30.403
Diego: And that is like a very interesting setup because I feel like there's an overarching, I don't know what to call it, like an ideal or a mission.

00:04:31.303 --> 00:04:36.023
Diego: Like there's an overarching mission that the characters have in common already.

00:04:36.543 --> 00:04:44.403
Diego: And you can kind of expect that that overarching mission is going to eventually bring them together, or could bring them together.

00:04:44.923 --> 00:04:53.163
Diego: I feel like it's easier for those kind of characters to end up coming together, like Deku and Bakugo, or Endeavor and All Might, right?

00:04:53.323 --> 00:05:08.183
Diego: Even though like the rivalry there was mostly on the side of Endeavor, like you can see that when it was Endeavor's time to step up as a hero, like the dude might be very competitive against All Might, but he believes in the hero cause ultimately.

00:05:08.403 --> 00:05:08.823
Joshua: Yeah.

00:05:08.843 --> 00:05:09.143
Diego: You know?

00:05:09.163 --> 00:05:14.043
Diego: And you could tell by the level of sacrifice that he's put forth, like trying to defend Japan.

00:05:15.523 --> 00:05:22.183
Diego: So there is like, there are some stories that are like that, but then there are some stories where like there is no overarching ideal.

00:05:24.583 --> 00:05:27.503
Diego: Or idea or goal or mission.

00:05:28.583 --> 00:05:36.663
Diego: Actually, another good example of that, like a common mission to me was from Super Campeones, Captain Subasa.

00:05:37.023 --> 00:05:37.243
Diego: Oh.

00:05:37.503 --> 00:05:37.843
Diego: Yes.

00:05:38.143 --> 00:05:43.563
Diego: Which I already sang the theme song, I'm not going to grace you guys ears once again, singing that theme song in Spanish.

00:05:43.943 --> 00:05:51.383
Diego: But that is one where it's really interesting because like, you know, it's a setup of basically like elementary school soccer teams.

00:05:52.423 --> 00:05:59.323
Diego: And so of course, soccer team versus soccer team, like they have the same goal.

00:06:00.443 --> 00:06:00.783
Diego: What?

00:06:01.083 --> 00:06:10.623
Diego: Like the same mission, which is to like, I feel like what unites them in that case is the love of the sport.

00:06:11.423 --> 00:06:11.823
Joshua: Yeah.

00:06:12.023 --> 00:06:17.143
Diego: Like they're all passionate as heck about the sport, and like that drives them to that rivalry, you know?

00:06:17.743 --> 00:06:26.863
Diego: But then the cool thing is when like they progress, and they get into like middle school and they get into high school, by the time I think they get around high school, that's when they enter like a new league.

00:06:27.143 --> 00:06:32.483
Joshua: That's when Oliver Atom really starts to bond with.

00:06:32.503 --> 00:06:32.843
Diego: Yes.

00:06:35.643 --> 00:06:38.543
Diego: No, but seriously, that's when they all like actually come together.

00:06:39.383 --> 00:06:52.083
Diego: And it's almost like a league that where it's like their city now puts together the best team, and they have to compete against other cities or something like that.

00:06:53.383 --> 00:07:02.883
Joshua: Oh, so when they get to those higher levels, the best players from the different teams, even if they won against each other before, are put into one team?

00:07:02.923 --> 00:07:03.363
Diego: Yeah.

00:07:03.563 --> 00:07:03.763
Joshua: Oh.

00:07:03.923 --> 00:07:05.323
Diego: It's badass, man.

00:07:05.363 --> 00:07:07.843
Diego: It's basically like a dream team.

00:07:07.943 --> 00:07:09.083
Diego: It really is.

00:07:09.103 --> 00:07:15.823
Diego: If you watch that anime the entire time, that moment for me was mind-blowing.

00:07:17.343 --> 00:07:25.023
Diego: It was incredible, because every team had their star players, whether it was the goalie, or the forward, or the defense, whatever.

00:07:25.043 --> 00:07:29.463
Diego: There was somebody who was the star of each team, kind of like basketball teams in the NBA.

00:07:30.063 --> 00:07:33.003
Diego: And then imagine suddenly all of them coming together.

00:07:33.203 --> 00:07:35.363
Diego: It actually is exactly like the dream team.

00:07:35.383 --> 00:07:37.963
Diego: The dream team is very much a real life.

00:07:37.983 --> 00:07:44.063
Diego: I'm talking about the dream team in 1992 in the Olympics in basketball.

00:07:44.583 --> 00:07:52.183
Diego: That team coming together, it was quite literally like rivals becoming allies against teams from the rest of the world.

00:07:52.923 --> 00:07:56.383
Diego: And it was mind-blowing what they did.

00:07:56.823 --> 00:08:08.263
Diego: I mean, just watch a YouTube highlight reel of the best plays from the 1992 US basketball team.

00:08:08.283 --> 00:08:11.023
Diego: And it's like, my God, it's incredible.

00:08:11.043 --> 00:08:16.323
Diego: Like, they completely clowned every other country in the world because all the stars were coming together.

00:08:16.343 --> 00:08:19.823
Diego: So it's a very similar scenario to what happened in Captain Tsubasa.

00:08:19.843 --> 00:08:28.903
Diego: And that moment to me was like, like, it's hard to believe that that could happen because you spent so much time seeing these people as rivals, you know?

00:08:29.623 --> 00:08:32.923
Diego: And I don't know what it is, man, but like, I really...

00:08:32.943 --> 00:08:35.243
Diego: That does it for me.

00:08:35.263 --> 00:08:53.623
Diego: Like, that's something that just satisfies me in a huge, huge way because it makes it so that, like, whenever I start watching a new show or a movie or an anime or whatever, like, I'm immediately starting to think, like, oh, man, imagine if these two, like, ended up, you know, teaming up at some point.

00:08:53.643 --> 00:08:58.043
Joshua: Something that's, like, kind of like that is with...

00:08:58.723 --> 00:09:04.083
Joshua: Like, every time that Goku and Vegeta are...

00:09:04.543 --> 00:09:15.983
Joshua: They're, like, both facing the same threat, there's always going to be that awesome moment where it's either, like, they fuse or they, like, fire off their most powerful attack at the same time.

00:09:16.323 --> 00:09:19.983
Joshua: And it's just, like, the most awesome moment in the whole, like, season.

00:09:20.003 --> 00:09:21.863
Joshua: And it's just so cool.

00:09:21.883 --> 00:09:22.223
Diego: Yeah.

00:09:22.663 --> 00:09:34.463
Diego: That, you know, actually, I didn't even think about this when I was preparing for this episode, but the fact that you mentioned the fusion, like, fusion is, like, the most literal example of this, right?

00:09:34.483 --> 00:09:40.523
Diego: Between, at least between, between Vegeta and Goku, like, the fact that they're, like, literally becoming one other being.

00:09:40.703 --> 00:09:41.163
Joshua: Yeah.

00:09:41.343 --> 00:09:43.503
Diego: That's, that's a really cool example of that, actually.

00:09:44.403 --> 00:09:49.403
Diego: And Dragon Ball, I think, has, like, tons of examples of this, because it's not only Goku and Vegeta.

00:09:49.423 --> 00:09:52.503
Diego: That's probably the most common one, like, the one that comes to mind immediately.

00:09:52.523 --> 00:09:55.263
Diego: But take it back.

00:09:56.643 --> 00:10:01.123
Diego: We already mentioned the androids being kind of, like, arrivals to allies with the Z warriors.

00:10:01.143 --> 00:10:03.263
Diego: But take it back to, like, Dragon Ball.

00:10:03.803 --> 00:10:07.923
Diego: Piccolo was the main enemy of Goku, you know, when he was a kid.

00:10:08.703 --> 00:10:13.903
Diego: And King Piccolo, and then he ended up becoming one of his main allies, you know?

00:10:13.963 --> 00:10:17.563
Diego: Like, the dude is literally babysitting his granddaughter, you know what I mean?

00:10:17.583 --> 00:10:20.023
Diego: Like, how much trustworthy could you become?

00:10:20.503 --> 00:10:23.583
Diego: And then there's other examples, too, like Yamcha, for example.

00:10:23.603 --> 00:10:26.403
Diego: Yamcha was an enemy for Goku back in Dragon Ball.

00:10:27.743 --> 00:10:28.923
Diego: He was, like, competing against them.

00:10:30.243 --> 00:10:33.283
Joshua: Oh, yeah, I remember you, like, told me about...

00:10:34.363 --> 00:10:35.423
Diego: And same thing with Tien.

00:10:35.443 --> 00:10:37.623
Diego: Tien was, like, a big rival.

00:10:37.643 --> 00:10:40.423
Diego: I think it was, like, during a martial arts tournament or something like that.

00:10:40.863 --> 00:10:43.023
Diego: And when he showed up, Tien, the dude with the third eye...

00:10:43.883 --> 00:10:47.863
Diego: Like, he was a dangerous rival for Goku.

00:10:47.883 --> 00:10:51.243
Diego: It was because he had, like, powers and abilities that he never had before.

00:10:51.463 --> 00:10:53.943
Joshua: And now he's, like, the least powerful kid.

00:10:54.303 --> 00:10:55.523
Diego: Dang, that's messed up.

00:10:55.543 --> 00:10:56.643
Diego: What are you talking about, bro?

00:10:56.663 --> 00:10:57.923
Diego: The world Tien comes through...

00:10:59.363 --> 00:10:59.943
Diego: Sometimes.

00:11:02.223 --> 00:11:07.463
Diego: I feel like the last time that I really felt Tien come through was during the Cell Saga, I think.

00:11:08.583 --> 00:11:09.283
Diego: But anyway...

00:11:10.423 --> 00:11:10.963
Joshua: That's crazy.

00:11:11.603 --> 00:11:11.903
Joshua: Yeah.

00:11:12.743 --> 00:11:13.203
Diego: Granted.

00:11:13.403 --> 00:11:14.783
Diego: Yeah, it is a while back.

00:11:15.243 --> 00:11:16.243
Diego: But no, there is, like...

00:11:16.843 --> 00:11:17.223
Diego: I feel...

00:11:17.243 --> 00:11:20.203
Diego: And then that's all due to, like, Goku himself.

00:11:20.243 --> 00:11:24.383
Diego: I feel like Goku has this thing where he's, like, the Dom Toretto of anime.

00:11:24.623 --> 00:11:25.023
Joshua: Yeah.

00:11:25.303 --> 00:11:29.843
Diego: He just turns all his rivals into allies, you know, and they become family.

00:11:31.283 --> 00:11:34.063
Diego: Goku should, you know, become family.

00:11:35.863 --> 00:11:36.903
Diego: Sorry, Chanchamel.

00:11:37.023 --> 00:11:37.843
Joshua: That impresses me.

00:11:37.863 --> 00:11:39.483
Diego: I totally wrecked your voice.

00:11:41.063 --> 00:11:43.363
Diego: But yeah, Dragon Ball is a really good example.

00:11:43.383 --> 00:11:53.323
Diego: I think Dragon Ball is, like, an amalgamation of scenarios like that where just rivals keep on becoming allies.

00:11:53.383 --> 00:11:55.523
Diego: The same thing happened with Beerus, right?

00:11:55.583 --> 00:12:04.423
Diego: Came to destroy the world, ends up eating sushi and whatever else with the Z warriors and becoming Goku's trainer and his friend, basically, almost sort of quasi.

00:12:05.423 --> 00:12:07.863
Diego: But yeah, that keeps on happening in Dragon Ball.

00:12:08.843 --> 00:12:13.083
Diego: I guess it's like, I don't know, do you think that gets tiring after a while?

00:12:13.603 --> 00:12:29.403
Joshua: Honestly, I feel like, obviously, the, well, I mean, obviously, the plot of Dragon Ball, honestly, Dragon Ball doesn't really have like any more.

00:12:29.683 --> 00:12:33.863
Joshua: It doesn't really have like a main objective.

00:12:34.363 --> 00:12:39.383
Joshua: Like, there's, there's the, there's obviously the main story, which just like keeps on going.

00:12:40.063 --> 00:12:49.603
Joshua: But the main objective and like the Dragon Balls, because it's like not really relevant anymore, like Bulma can find all of them in like two seconds.

00:12:49.663 --> 00:12:53.043
Joshua: I know, yeah, that's so weird because that's not really relevant anymore.

00:12:53.063 --> 00:12:56.083
Diego: The collection of the Dragon Balls really is an afterthought at this point.

00:12:56.323 --> 00:12:58.803
Diego: I feel like, you know, we know what we need to do.

00:12:58.823 --> 00:13:01.043
Diego: Let's gather the Dragon Balls two seconds later.

00:13:01.203 --> 00:13:03.283
Diego: Right guys, summon Shenron.

00:13:03.383 --> 00:13:03.823
Joshua: Yeah.

00:13:04.063 --> 00:13:04.983
Joshua: Yeah, that's weird.

00:13:05.183 --> 00:13:14.643
Joshua: I feel like the point of Dragon Ball is really just like adding more unique characters to the lineup at this point.

00:13:14.663 --> 00:13:15.023
Diego: Yeah.

00:13:15.043 --> 00:13:16.763
Joshua: Which isn't bad.

00:13:16.803 --> 00:13:18.123
Joshua: Like, I like that.

00:13:18.723 --> 00:13:24.143
Joshua: But I feel like that's kind of the point of Dragon Ball is like finding new enemies.

00:13:24.263 --> 00:13:24.643
Diego: Yeah.

00:13:24.763 --> 00:13:29.243
Joshua: And then either defeating them or adding them to like the friend list.

00:13:30.183 --> 00:13:35.063
Diego: Who's the last person that they actually defeated that like remained a villain and they had to like kill?

00:13:37.143 --> 00:13:38.923
Diego: Brawly ended up becoming an ally.

00:13:39.603 --> 00:13:43.683
Diego: Cell ended up becoming, no, I'm sorry, not Cell, the Frieza ended up becoming an ally.

00:13:43.783 --> 00:13:50.963
Diego: Like Frieza, the guy who destroyed planet Vegeta ended up becoming a freaking ally, man.

00:13:50.983 --> 00:13:52.823
Diego: That's insane.

00:13:54.423 --> 00:13:59.443
Diego: So I don't know, it really does seem like that's just like Dragon Ball's whole identity.

00:13:59.483 --> 00:14:00.423
Joshua: It's the rivals to allies.

00:14:00.443 --> 00:14:03.303
Joshua: The point of Dragon Ball is basically rivals to allies.

00:14:03.323 --> 00:14:03.963
Diego: Pretty much.

00:14:04.203 --> 00:14:09.103
Diego: Which when you think about it, it's kind of like a nice innocent theme in a way.

00:14:10.543 --> 00:14:11.083
Diego: It's nice.

00:14:11.863 --> 00:14:12.503
Diego: Fine, whatever.

00:14:12.943 --> 00:14:15.383
Diego: And it delivers a good action along the way.

00:14:16.183 --> 00:14:24.463
Diego: I do feel like Dragon Ball GT did a better job in not doing that.

00:14:25.343 --> 00:14:33.283
Diego: Because everything that I think back, when Baby showed up and possessed Vegeta's body, they just needed to defeat Baby.

00:14:34.083 --> 00:14:35.623
Diego: They needed to get rid of him, and they did.

00:14:35.643 --> 00:14:41.183
Diego: And then when Omega Shenron showed up, they needed to kill him.

00:14:41.383 --> 00:14:44.603
Diego: There was no sense of this dude is going to become our buddy one day.

00:14:44.783 --> 00:14:45.323
Diego: Not at all.

00:14:47.123 --> 00:14:49.823
Diego: But then as soon as they discarded GT and went back to...

00:14:50.103 --> 00:14:51.283
Joshua: Super or Z?

00:14:51.683 --> 00:14:54.483
Diego: Yeah, went back to continuing Z.

00:14:55.403 --> 00:14:57.483
Diego: No, to continuing Super.

00:14:58.063 --> 00:15:01.643
Joshua: Well, wasn't GT in between Z and Super?

00:15:02.423 --> 00:15:03.723
Diego: GT was after Z.

00:15:04.083 --> 00:15:05.443
Diego: Yeah, so it was Super.

00:15:05.463 --> 00:15:07.183
Diego: Super is when he continued it.

00:15:08.063 --> 00:15:09.863
Diego: But anyway, all right, enough about Dragon Ball.

00:15:09.883 --> 00:15:11.183
Diego: Where else do we see this?

00:15:11.443 --> 00:15:14.583
Diego: And what other kind of scenarios do we see of rivals to allies?

00:15:14.603 --> 00:15:17.683
Diego: Because we already talked about the ones that have a common goal.

00:15:18.663 --> 00:15:24.143
Diego: Then we've talked about the Dom Toretto rivals to family kind of scenario.

00:15:24.403 --> 00:15:25.983
Diego: Goku does that, etc.

00:15:27.463 --> 00:15:36.203
Diego: Then there's some instances where the Alliance really is only about survival.

00:15:37.243 --> 00:15:43.723
Joshua: I think something like that is kind of in Godzilla and Kong.

00:15:44.063 --> 00:15:52.263
Joshua: Like in the first Godzilla vs Kong, at first, they have to deal with the same thing.

00:15:52.283 --> 00:15:58.683
Joshua: Because they're both kaiju, like everybody looks at them with the same monster identity.

00:16:01.163 --> 00:16:08.523
Joshua: And then when it was with Mechagodzilla, it was like really just to survive.

00:16:08.543 --> 00:16:12.303
Joshua: They just had to fight them for both of them for their own common good.

00:16:13.023 --> 00:16:21.103
Joshua: And then in the new movie, what it looks like at least, they're gonna have to team up by choice.

00:16:21.463 --> 00:16:26.523
Joshua: Which I feel like that's kind of cool that it shows that they can trust each other now.

00:16:26.923 --> 00:16:27.423
Joshua: I guess.

00:16:28.083 --> 00:16:31.463
Joshua: Because like, like, do you know, you know what I mean?

00:16:31.503 --> 00:16:35.123
Joshua: Like no, I know what you're saying, because they're teaming up on purpose.

00:16:35.143 --> 00:16:35.423
Diego: Yeah.

00:16:35.743 --> 00:16:36.043
Diego: Yeah.

00:16:36.283 --> 00:16:37.143
Diego: No, I know what you're saying.

00:16:37.163 --> 00:16:41.323
Diego: I just, I'm still trying to make my mind up about how I feel about that.

00:16:42.263 --> 00:17:00.263
Diego: Like in the new trailer, when I saw, and we're talking about Godzilla X Kong, the new empire, there's like, I don't know, it was like a couple of scenes that it looks like Godzilla and Kong are basically Avengers, just like rushing to battle, like those, you know what I'm saying?

00:17:00.283 --> 00:17:01.703
Diego: Like those trailer scenes.

00:17:01.723 --> 00:17:02.943
Diego: Yeah.

00:17:04.303 --> 00:17:16.423
Diego: Where it, I don't know, I just don't know how I feel about it, man, like, I thought that it was cool up to the point where they had to unite against the threat of Mechagodzilla.

00:17:17.043 --> 00:17:22.143
Diego: I think that was a cool reason for them, a good enough reason for them to ally.

00:17:23.723 --> 00:17:30.723
Diego: But, like, it's not like Goku and Vegeta, who can sit down and have a conversation.

00:17:30.963 --> 00:17:31.483
Joshua: Yeah.

00:17:31.503 --> 00:17:37.343
Diego: And reason, like, Kong isn't having tea with Zilla and like, you know, talking things out.

00:17:37.423 --> 00:17:38.763
Diego: That's not happening.

00:17:39.563 --> 00:17:49.123
Diego: So what's left is like two creatures that yes, they're intelligent, but they're also, you know, animalistic.

00:17:50.023 --> 00:18:02.223
Diego: And instinctively, like, the monster verse established that within, like, their DNA memory, they have the rivalry instilled in themselves between their two species.

00:18:03.263 --> 00:18:07.083
Diego: So that's where, to me, like, I start getting into, like, a conflict.

00:18:07.083 --> 00:18:12.643
Diego: I don't know how I feel about them being, like, just buddy cop comedy type thing now.

00:18:12.703 --> 00:18:19.543
Joshua: Well, I think another example of that is kind of in a different way than maybe you would think.

00:18:19.803 --> 00:18:24.803
Joshua: But another example is Deku and Bakugo, where obviously you have...

00:18:24.823 --> 00:18:27.383
Joshua: Well, this isn't really spoilers.

00:18:27.563 --> 00:18:34.643
Joshua: Obviously, you have All for One who is, like, trying to get the one quirk that you could never get, One for All.

00:18:34.843 --> 00:18:35.203
Diego: Yeah.

00:18:35.543 --> 00:18:38.243
Joshua: And he's trying to get it from Deku.

00:18:38.523 --> 00:18:38.863
Diego: Right.

00:18:39.203 --> 00:19:02.743
Joshua: And because Bakugo knows about everything, like All Might and Deku told him and everything, he has to now work with Deku and All Might because he's also basically in danger because he knows, but, like, he is one of the only people that knows.

00:19:03.323 --> 00:19:10.803
Joshua: And that puts him in danger because they're going for Deku and anybody who has information on him could be at danger.

00:19:11.363 --> 00:19:25.303
Diego: Yeah, that's actually a really interesting rivalry there and a really interesting alliance because I almost feel like Bakugo, it's not about Deku for him, it's about the responsibility that Deku inherited.

00:19:26.523 --> 00:19:31.503
Diego: Have you noticed that?

00:19:31.523 --> 00:19:41.323
Diego: He kind of allied himself with Deku because, and at first, he was ticked off at the fact that he inherited All Might's power when he found that out.

00:19:41.823 --> 00:19:56.443
Diego: But then after some time, you could tell that he kind of reasoned out or at least felt out the fact that, okay, this is the reality, this dude who was a nerd to me, who I've hated my whole life, he has his responsibility.

00:19:57.103 --> 00:20:04.863
Diego: And since Bakugo, deep down inside, he really does believe in the hero agenda, and you can tell he had a chance to turn evil and didn't.

00:20:07.363 --> 00:20:21.303
Diego: And it's almost like if he's allying himself with Deku because he feels like he's such a nerd that he's not going to be able to live up to the legacy, and he's helping them make sure that he stays true to All Might's legacy in a way.

00:20:21.323 --> 00:20:22.783
Diego: Like, that's how I kind of process it.

00:20:23.263 --> 00:20:34.623
Diego: Because you can tell that Bakugo, like, deep down inside, all he really wants is to overpower him and surpass him, even after knowing that he had All Might's power.

00:20:36.643 --> 00:20:39.903
Diego: Which is not to dissimilar, I guess, from Goku and Vegeta.

00:20:41.083 --> 00:20:41.443
Diego: You know?

00:20:41.483 --> 00:20:49.843
Diego: Like, Vegeta, doesn't matter how much time passes, Vegeta's ultimate goal is always and will always be, I need to beat this guy fair and square one day.

00:20:50.063 --> 00:20:57.623
Joshua: And every single time that he surpasses Goku in power, it's just immediately passed up.

00:20:58.323 --> 00:21:01.103
Joshua: And I can see why Vegeta is mad.

00:21:01.383 --> 00:21:09.743
Joshua: Because when he finally gets a solid point of like, oh, this is a point where Kakarot will never be able to surpass me.

00:21:09.863 --> 00:21:13.443
Joshua: And then he goes up 90 trillion power levels.

00:21:13.843 --> 00:21:24.703
Diego: And I do think that it was very smart what they did eventually within Dragon Ball, where they've now gone, they stopped going up in a linear way, Super Saiyan 1, Super Saiyan 2, 3, etc.

00:21:24.723 --> 00:21:27.243
Diego: Like now, they're going off in tangents.

00:21:27.883 --> 00:21:34.843
Diego: So it's not about like, can Vegeta get to Super Saiyan, whatever that Goku already got to.

00:21:35.343 --> 00:21:40.563
Diego: No, it's like they reach a certain level, and then from there, Goku went Ultra Instinct.

00:21:40.783 --> 00:21:42.103
Diego: And Vegeta went, what is it?

00:21:42.123 --> 00:21:42.723
Joshua: Ultra Ego.

00:21:44.663 --> 00:21:48.263
Diego: And then Piccolo went, what are you calling it?

00:21:48.283 --> 00:21:49.523
Joshua: Ultra Piccolo, I don't know.

00:21:49.583 --> 00:21:50.483
Diego: Orange Piccolo?

00:21:50.903 --> 00:21:51.763
Diego: He turned orange.

00:21:52.003 --> 00:21:52.583
Joshua: He did.

00:21:52.783 --> 00:21:56.083
Diego: Gohan went that other thing, remember?

00:21:56.263 --> 00:21:58.163
Joshua: Yeah, I don't know, Ultimate Gohan.

00:21:58.203 --> 00:21:58.803
Diego: Yeah.

00:21:59.003 --> 00:22:06.783
Diego: So they've all gone in now tangential directions, and it's no longer about who's going to get to the next level first.

00:22:06.803 --> 00:22:10.563
Joshua: Get to the next specific, get to the next point on the pathway.

00:22:10.703 --> 00:22:15.683
Diego: Yeah, and I think that's kind of cool because at that point, you're kind of competing against yourself, right?

00:22:15.703 --> 00:22:18.703
Diego: It's like, when am I going to surpass my next level?

00:22:19.163 --> 00:22:22.483
Diego: Instead of like, when am I going to reach a level that this other person already reached?

00:22:22.763 --> 00:22:23.003
Joshua: Yeah.

00:22:23.023 --> 00:22:23.583
Diego: That sort of thing.

00:22:24.783 --> 00:22:39.883
Diego: Speaking back to about Bakugo and Deku, and actually Goku and Vegeta, it reminds me a lot of the rivalry between Rocky and Apollo Creed, because Rocky and Apollo Creed started off as rivals.

00:22:39.923 --> 00:22:40.363
Joshua: Yeah.

00:22:40.883 --> 00:22:52.683
Diego: And then, eventually, Rocky got good enough that he was able to beat Apollo Creed, and then came a bigger threat in the form of...

00:22:53.303 --> 00:22:55.043
Diego: What's this dude's name?

00:22:56.323 --> 00:22:57.403
Joshua: Ivan Jago?

00:22:57.543 --> 00:22:57.823
Joshua: Or...

00:22:57.963 --> 00:22:58.483
Diego: No, no.

00:23:01.763 --> 00:23:03.323
Diego: Oh my god, I'm going to forget his name.

00:23:04.023 --> 00:23:05.343
Diego: Anyway, his character, right?

00:23:05.683 --> 00:23:11.783
Diego: Who was a bigger threat, you know, the biggest threat that he had faced up to that point, and then Apollo comes in and he becomes his trainer.

00:23:12.263 --> 00:23:19.083
Diego: That kind of reminds me of Bakugo with Deku, you know, where it's like, you know, you fool, you're about to lose everything you've gained.

00:23:19.623 --> 00:23:23.043
Diego: Let me help you maintain that, you know?

00:23:23.423 --> 00:23:26.643
Diego: And it's for the respect of the game, for the love of the game, you know?

00:23:27.583 --> 00:23:27.843
Diego: And...

00:23:28.383 --> 00:23:42.563
Diego: But it never takes away the rivalry, because even after all that, after he trained them and after they hugged in the beach, all sweaty and whatever, in that training montage in the beach, in the beach, at the end of that movie, they were having that secret fight, right?

00:23:42.903 --> 00:23:50.583
Diego: Because it was still about their rivalry, even with no audience, no title on the line, it was about that rivalry.

00:23:51.183 --> 00:23:54.403
Diego: So like, that reminds me of that, of like Apollo Creed and Rocky.

00:23:54.423 --> 00:24:01.723
Diego: There's like an alliance for the love of the sport, but the rivalry was never gonna go away.

00:24:02.343 --> 00:24:03.083
Diego: That's what I think.

00:24:03.343 --> 00:24:04.523
Diego: What other examples do you have?

00:24:04.543 --> 00:24:07.103
Diego: Like, can you spot any different categories?

00:24:08.543 --> 00:24:16.083
Joshua: I think with Sasuke and Naruto, they went like multiple times.

00:24:16.103 --> 00:24:22.003
Joshua: They went from enemies to allies to enemies to allies.

00:24:22.563 --> 00:24:25.763
Joshua: Like in the beginning, like in the beginning, beginning of the show.

00:24:26.243 --> 00:24:30.963
Joshua: Like when they were in the same like school and everything, they just didn't like each other.

00:24:31.123 --> 00:24:35.743
Joshua: They just had like a small like childish dish like this, like this.

00:24:37.683 --> 00:24:38.283
Joshua: What's the word?

00:24:39.723 --> 00:24:42.663
Joshua: Like they just didn't like each other in like a kind of childish way.

00:24:42.723 --> 00:24:45.103
Joshua: They were like childishly enemies.

00:24:45.663 --> 00:24:53.443
Joshua: And then they were allies under under team seven under Kakashi's team, and they were working together in missions.

00:24:54.163 --> 00:25:18.363
Joshua: And then Orochimaru, the main villain, or I guess of the first show, he kind of abducts Sasuke and then Sasuke like the whole point of the show, basically from then to like, like Shippuden, like the middle of Shippuden or something towards the end is like recovering Sasuke, basically.

00:25:18.663 --> 00:25:20.103
Joshua: And then when they finally do-

00:25:20.123 --> 00:25:22.343
Diego: Recovering Sasuke, this is a female, right?

00:25:22.663 --> 00:25:22.943
Joshua: No.

00:25:23.183 --> 00:25:23.983
Diego: Oh, whoops.

00:25:24.183 --> 00:25:27.423
Diego: Recovering Sasuke because he had gotten-

00:25:28.123 --> 00:25:33.763
Joshua: Because he had gotten abducted and he had kind of like started to become-

00:25:34.363 --> 00:25:40.763
Joshua: He had started to agree, kind of, with the enemies.

00:25:40.823 --> 00:26:00.083
Joshua: And then after everything that had happened, after all the like war and everything, at the end of the war, the last thing that they did, Naruto and Sasuke, was fight it out alone in this like secluded area, this like big waterfall area.

00:26:00.463 --> 00:26:03.423
Joshua: That's all they did because they wanted to settle their rivalry.

00:26:03.803 --> 00:26:16.923
Joshua: And they literally fought for like hours until they passed out on like trading punches, like and then like trading like sloppy, slow, tired punches.

00:26:17.283 --> 00:26:18.583
Joshua: And then they passed out.

00:26:19.023 --> 00:26:25.003
Joshua: And then the last attack was they both did their big like Kamehameha type attack at each other.

00:26:25.523 --> 00:26:45.063
Joshua: And then the last shot of the episode is just them laying on their back with both of their arms, like gone, and it's like their rivalry was like the main, pretty much main point of all of the first show and like half of the second show.

00:26:45.843 --> 00:26:46.923
Joshua: Which is kind of awesome.

00:26:47.063 --> 00:26:47.763
Diego: That's pretty cool.

00:26:47.863 --> 00:26:49.903
Diego: I love it when the rivalries get to that degree.

00:26:49.963 --> 00:26:55.943
Diego: Like when they reach a stalemate, yeah, and to the point where like neither one could go any further.

00:26:57.243 --> 00:27:10.323
Diego: I forget, there's like a really vivid image in my head and I can't remember what characters it is from what show or movie or whatever, but like there's a thing when it's like where both of them got to that point, that complete exhaustion can't do anything more.

00:27:10.343 --> 00:27:16.603
Diego: I think maybe it was like Saint Seiya, Pegasus and Dragon, I think got to a similar point.

00:27:16.863 --> 00:27:34.423
Diego: Anyway, but so moving away from these kind of examples, there is one type of rivalry turned to allies scenario that I think is also pretty common in this, like for the sake of survival, right?

00:27:34.443 --> 00:27:37.603
Diego: Where you have like a big threat that is coming.

00:27:37.623 --> 00:27:51.943
Diego: And even if the two allies, if the two rivals have like zero intention of allying with each other, because this massive threat is on its way, like they have to team up for survival or else like they're all going to be gone, you know?

00:27:53.063 --> 00:28:08.583
Diego: So, I think of things like the comic book series, Deceased, where by the end of it, so many heroes and villains had died that it was like a no-brainer that all the heroes and villains that were left were going to team up.

00:28:09.503 --> 00:28:11.463
Diego: And they did, like all of them teamed up.

00:28:12.043 --> 00:28:17.423
Diego: Like crazy stuff like Darkseid and Superman and the Kryptonians were on the same side, you know, type thing.

00:28:19.403 --> 00:28:30.263
Diego: And that kind of scenario is cool because it leaves a huge question mark for after the threat is defeated, you know, like, what's actually going to happen?

00:28:30.283 --> 00:28:31.643
Diego: Like, are we really friends?

00:28:31.803 --> 00:28:37.923
Diego: Or if once the status quo returns and the big threat is gone, do we immediately go back to rivals?

00:28:38.523 --> 00:28:45.283
Diego: Or because we were forced to team up, are we left with like a sense of respect for each other and it's almost like a truce?

00:28:46.063 --> 00:28:48.903
Diego: You know, we're not rivals, but there's a peace.

00:28:48.923 --> 00:28:51.543
Diego: Do you have any other examples?

00:28:51.563 --> 00:28:52.803
Diego: Do you have any examples like that?

00:28:54.563 --> 00:28:56.123
Joshua: I think I do.

00:28:56.403 --> 00:28:59.143
Joshua: And it's also from Naruto.

00:29:00.223 --> 00:29:14.583
Joshua: In the great ninja war that we, the only one we see in the show really, this character Obito, who seems like he's the next big threat after this other character.

00:29:15.163 --> 00:29:18.083
Joshua: He's the main villain that everyone's trying to fight.

00:29:18.103 --> 00:29:24.223
Joshua: And then all of a sudden, a bigger threat emerges, like a godly threat.

00:29:24.623 --> 00:29:42.563
Joshua: And then everybody who was just fighting him in the war, literally everybody, he's forced to team up with them to fight the other threat, because he knows that if everybody doesn't team up, including all the strongest players from every team, that they're all going to die basically.

00:29:43.323 --> 00:30:06.243
Joshua: And I think that kind of enemies to allies, even just the short term enemies to allies, is still cool because it shows that under the certain amount of stress or whatever, they'll be forced to have a mutual respect for each other.

00:30:07.083 --> 00:30:13.063
Diego: Yeah, because it shows that you recognize how formidable your opponent is, right?

00:30:13.643 --> 00:30:22.163
Diego: Where you know that here's this threat coming, the only way that I can defeat this is with somebody that is equally good as me.

00:30:22.243 --> 00:30:26.423
Joshua: Like even if they're somebody that I've been like fighting for all this time.

00:30:26.443 --> 00:30:27.543
Diego: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

00:30:27.763 --> 00:30:32.823
Diego: And then that was like, let me see for my examples.

00:30:32.843 --> 00:30:37.823
Diego: I've got Daredevil and Punisher from the Netflix series from the Netflix Marvel universe.

00:30:40.003 --> 00:30:49.643
Diego: I think that was a really cool example of that because Frank Castle, the Punisher and Matt Murdock, Daredevil, they have very different philosophies.

00:30:50.383 --> 00:30:56.043
Diego: They're both vigilantes, but the way that they approach vigilantism is completely different.

00:30:56.503 --> 00:30:58.063
Diego: There's no comparison.

00:30:58.943 --> 00:31:04.063
Diego: Punisher is ready to kill anybody who he deems a threat to safety and security.

00:31:06.503 --> 00:31:10.563
Diego: Whereas Daredevil is going to put them down, but send them to jail.

00:31:11.643 --> 00:31:16.823
Diego: So kind of like a Batman Red Hood type thing, but honestly Punisher is much more extreme than Red Hood.

00:31:18.823 --> 00:31:22.803
Diego: And then during the events of that show, they were forced to team up.

00:31:23.923 --> 00:31:28.503
Diego: Not forced, they teamed up after like a lot of battling each other.

00:31:29.943 --> 00:31:32.883
Diego: And no, it wasn't even a team up.

00:31:33.923 --> 00:31:36.903
Diego: It was that Daredevil was getting his butt handed to him by the hand.

00:31:38.003 --> 00:31:45.843
Diego: And right in his lowest moment, suddenly Frank Castle started sniping dudes from like all tower far away.

00:31:47.863 --> 00:31:53.143
Diego: And he knew that Daredevil could hear him because Daredevil has like the supersonic hearing thing.

00:31:53.943 --> 00:32:00.183
Diego: And so after he finished like sniping dudes to give him back the advantage, he just like whispered.

00:32:00.203 --> 00:32:01.783
Diego: He was like, you know, see you around, Red.

00:32:02.103 --> 00:32:03.003
Diego: And then walked away.

00:32:03.303 --> 00:32:03.963
Diego: And that was it.

00:32:04.023 --> 00:32:05.983
Joshua: Is his hearing that good?

00:32:07.343 --> 00:32:07.923
Diego: Absolutely.

00:32:08.043 --> 00:32:08.623
Diego: Like a bat.

00:32:09.823 --> 00:32:18.203
Diego: Oh, and that's an interesting one, because like, there are characters who philosophically cannot become allies.

00:32:19.683 --> 00:32:22.323
Diego: But there's still a respect for them.

00:32:22.343 --> 00:32:24.683
Diego: It's like the whole Magneto and Professor X thing.

00:32:24.723 --> 00:32:43.643
Diego: Yeah, like there is a kinship there, because they understand that like, ultimately, they both in the case of Magneto and Professor X, like, they're both all about mutants, you know, like, they want survival of the mutant species just in very different drastically different ways.

00:32:43.663 --> 00:32:54.943
Diego: Like, you know, Professor X is like, I want mutants to survive and thrive, therefore, I want to find ways for them to be integrated into humanity, into the world and respected and accepted.

00:32:54.983 --> 00:33:05.543
Diego: And then Magneto is like, I want only kids like my way of getting mutants to being safe is by eliminating anybody who isn't a mutant.

00:33:05.763 --> 00:33:06.163
Diego: Yeah.

00:33:06.823 --> 00:33:10.903
Diego: So, but ultimately, it's all for the love of their people, right?

00:33:12.083 --> 00:33:16.583
Diego: And so philosophically, they're never going to be able to like truly be allies.

00:33:17.783 --> 00:33:23.143
Diego: But there are moments when they team up because the threat demands it.

00:33:23.303 --> 00:33:30.523
Joshua: You think like a situation like Iron Man and Cap in Endgame is like that?

00:33:31.023 --> 00:33:36.323
Joshua: Because like in Civil War, obviously, their philosophies were really different.

00:33:36.343 --> 00:33:38.123
Joshua: Like Cap didn't want to.

00:33:38.703 --> 00:33:41.343
Joshua: That's the whole reason everything happened.

00:33:41.483 --> 00:33:45.343
Joshua: Yeah, like Cap didn't want to like abide with the government.

00:33:45.683 --> 00:33:51.303
Joshua: And Tony's whole side was like, well, there would be some like bonuses if we do this and stuff.

00:33:51.383 --> 00:33:55.103
Joshua: And then in Endgame, they all came together.

00:33:55.283 --> 00:33:59.503
Joshua: Everybody who was on different sides, even if like somebody died or something like that.

00:33:59.523 --> 00:33:59.703
Diego: Yeah.

00:33:59.963 --> 00:34:03.043
Joshua: They all came together because of respect for each other.

00:34:03.883 --> 00:34:08.963
Diego: More importantly, though, they came together after they didn't come together.

00:34:09.243 --> 00:34:09.663
Joshua: Yeah.

00:34:09.703 --> 00:34:24.423
Diego: Remember Iron Man's whole like, when he was rescued by Captain Marvel from outer space, his whole spiel to Steve Rogers is like, you told me remember when Steve sent him like that flip phone, and he was like, the Avengers are yours.

00:34:25.203 --> 00:34:26.923
Diego: If you ever need me, I'll be there.

00:34:27.103 --> 00:34:27.563
Diego: Call me.

00:34:29.063 --> 00:34:33.043
Diego: And he wasn't there, like, granted, he was fighting a separate battle, right?

00:34:33.063 --> 00:34:34.183
Diego: And Tony didn't really know that.

00:34:35.303 --> 00:34:39.863
Diego: But the point is that like, Tony knew that together they were stronger.

00:34:40.963 --> 00:34:44.343
Diego: And he felt like Steve didn't allow for that to happen.

00:34:44.363 --> 00:34:46.523
Diego: Like he was like, you know, we should have remained together.

00:34:46.543 --> 00:34:47.643
Diego: We should have never split up.

00:34:49.083 --> 00:34:51.443
Diego: We should have agreed with whatever regulations, etc.

00:34:51.463 --> 00:34:52.663
Diego: of the Sokovia Accords.

00:34:54.463 --> 00:35:02.983
Diego: So, like, there was that moment of like, you know, we didn't come together, and then all this happened, you know, half of all living beings vanished.

00:35:03.903 --> 00:35:09.143
Diego: And so it like made, I think, that moment of coming together finally and end game like that much stronger.

00:35:09.803 --> 00:35:15.243
Diego: But yeah, like, I don't think that ever took away the philosophical differences between Steve Rogers and Tony Stark.

00:35:15.243 --> 00:35:24.643
Diego: Like, if they would have both survived, then there would have still been a division, I think.

00:35:25.643 --> 00:35:30.123
Diego: I can't see them really being okay and being together.

00:35:30.803 --> 00:35:33.163
Diego: Like, I don't know.

00:35:33.183 --> 00:35:33.683
Diego: What do you think?

00:35:33.783 --> 00:35:38.263
Diego: Did they ally themselves just to be able to defeat Thanos, or was there true, like, forgiveness?

00:35:38.563 --> 00:35:38.943
Joshua: I feel like...

00:35:38.963 --> 00:35:40.003
Diego: There kind of was a moment.

00:35:40.123 --> 00:35:42.653
Joshua: I feel like they...

00:35:42.653 --> 00:35:44.593
Joshua: well, I mean, obviously...

00:35:44.593 --> 00:35:52.923
Joshua: okay, well, obviously, Steve's friend killed his parents, and Steve was like, oh, it doesn't really matter.

00:35:53.083 --> 00:35:53.303
Joshua: But...

00:35:54.283 --> 00:35:55.563
Diego: Dude, it was brainwashed, though.

00:35:55.563 --> 00:35:56.783
Joshua: I mean...

00:35:56.783 --> 00:35:59.653
Joshua: but I feel like they...

00:35:59.653 --> 00:36:04.983
Joshua: like, even after, they always had, like, an admiration for each other.

00:36:05.603 --> 00:36:13.343
Joshua: And I feel like they couldn't really hate each other to the point where they could never team up again.

00:36:13.583 --> 00:36:13.943
Diego: Right.

00:36:14.043 --> 00:36:14.403
Diego: No, yeah.

00:36:14.423 --> 00:36:15.583
Diego: I'm sure they will team up again.

00:36:15.883 --> 00:36:17.603
Joshua: And I feel like...

00:36:17.603 --> 00:36:20.103
Joshua: like, what I'm trying to say is...

00:36:22.903 --> 00:36:38.143
Joshua: like, if they had both survived, there would have definitely, if the time had come, been a time where they would have teamed up again, I feel like.

00:36:38.683 --> 00:36:39.263
Diego: Probably.

00:36:39.443 --> 00:36:52.583
Joshua: And because I feel like, after everything that they had went through from Avengers, the first ever one, all the way to Endgame, there's no way that they could ever just give it up completely.

00:36:52.603 --> 00:36:52.903
Diego: Right.

00:36:52.923 --> 00:36:53.823
Joshua: Like, never...

00:36:53.823 --> 00:36:56.283
Joshua: swear to never work with them ever again.

00:36:56.283 --> 00:36:57.163
Diego: No, no, yeah.

00:36:57.183 --> 00:36:57.963
Diego: I think they would have.

00:36:58.283 --> 00:37:02.083
Diego: But I do think that it could have ended up resulting in something like the...

00:37:02.883 --> 00:37:06.923
Diego: Like in the comics, you got the main Avengers team, and then you got like West Coast Avengers.

00:37:07.883 --> 00:37:09.563
Diego: And it's like two separate teams.

00:37:09.583 --> 00:37:10.223
Joshua: What is that?

00:37:10.243 --> 00:37:13.223
Diego: It's an Avengers team, but in the West Coast.

00:37:14.223 --> 00:37:16.303
Diego: Because, you know, the Avengers are always stationed in New York.

00:37:16.923 --> 00:37:18.753
Diego: And so West Coast Avengers function on the other...

00:37:18.753 --> 00:37:19.423
Diego: on the opposite.

00:37:19.443 --> 00:37:20.253
Joshua: Is it like completely...

00:37:20.253 --> 00:37:21.603
Joshua: it's just different people?

00:37:21.623 --> 00:37:22.943
Diego: Yeah, it's a whole different roster.

00:37:23.523 --> 00:37:28.983
Diego: And there's been like several Avengers that have like swapped around from one team to the other.

00:37:30.023 --> 00:37:32.463
Diego: So I think it could have resulted in something like that.

00:37:32.463 --> 00:37:37.123
Diego: Like it would have been like a division of forces in a way, but not in a rivalry kind of way.

00:37:37.143 --> 00:37:41.943
Diego: More like, you know, alliance for when it calls for like a bigger threat or something like that.

00:37:42.483 --> 00:37:47.963
Diego: But yeah, there's a thing in the comics I just read for the first time.

00:37:47.983 --> 00:38:03.723
Diego: I don't know why I had never read this, but the Dark Rain storyline in the Marvel Comics universe, which happens right after Secret Invasion, where like heroes and villains have to team up in the entire Marvel universe to be able to defeat the attacking scrolls.

00:38:04.883 --> 00:38:11.703
Diego: And the guy who does like the kill shot of the final like super scroll is Norman Osborn, the guy who used to be the Green Goblin.

00:38:11.723 --> 00:38:11.983
Joshua: Really?

00:38:13.423 --> 00:38:35.303
Diego: And so like, because of that, he becomes like a war hero and becomes like respected and pardoned for all his crimes as the Green Goblin under the auspice of like, it was a mental health thing, right, like he didn't have control of his faculties, and now he is medicated and he is in therapy and he's, you know, getting all this help and he's like a reformed man.

00:38:36.743 --> 00:38:39.523
Diego: But he ends up going and forming the Dark Avengers.

00:38:40.583 --> 00:38:48.303
Diego: Like this is during a period of time where like Steve Rogers and Tony Stark and Nick Fury all are like this band basically, and they're like fugitives in a way.

00:38:49.843 --> 00:38:52.483
Joshua: Norman Osborn made the Dark Avengers?

00:38:53.203 --> 00:38:55.423
Diego: Yeah, he made the Dark Avengers.

00:38:56.263 --> 00:39:00.663
Diego: He created another organization to replace SHIELD., because SHIELD was no longer trusted.

00:39:01.243 --> 00:39:09.063
Diego: And it was called Hammer, which also is a, what do you call it, it's a, what do you call these things, man?

00:39:09.343 --> 00:39:09.883
Joshua: Organize.

00:39:09.963 --> 00:39:12.103
Diego: No, no, you know how SHIELD each letter means a different thing?

00:39:12.763 --> 00:39:13.723
Joshua: Oh, um.

00:39:14.423 --> 00:39:15.483
Diego: Kildare, what is that called?

00:39:15.503 --> 00:39:16.543
Diego: How am I blanking on this?

00:39:18.743 --> 00:39:20.983
Diego: Oh my God, you know what I mean.

00:39:21.223 --> 00:39:22.943
Diego: All of you out there know what I mean.

00:39:22.963 --> 00:39:23.263
Joshua: Yeah.

00:39:23.543 --> 00:39:32.743
Diego: Um, and so it's like, it's called Hammer and it's a, they're like basically another SHIELD and then he's the head of Hammer and he's also the head of the New Avengers.

00:39:32.823 --> 00:39:44.503
Diego: And so one of the people that he's recruiting gives him the idea of like, they're talking about like how the symbol of Iron Man and the symbol of Captain America are like so missed in the country.

00:39:46.203 --> 00:39:51.483
Diego: And so, you know, he's like, man, you know, one of them, I think it's Ares, the god of war will tell them that, you know, if only we could combine them.

00:39:51.943 --> 00:39:54.323
Diego: And that's what leads to the Iron Patriot.

00:39:54.663 --> 00:39:54.983
Joshua: Huh?

00:39:55.603 --> 00:39:56.043
Joshua: Ares?

00:39:56.283 --> 00:39:56.623
Diego: Ares.

00:39:56.643 --> 00:39:56.823
Diego: Yeah.

00:39:56.843 --> 00:39:58.263
Diego: He recruits them to the Dark Avengers.

00:39:58.263 --> 00:39:59.243
Diego: He's like his Thor.

00:39:59.823 --> 00:40:01.783
Joshua: Like Ares?

00:40:01.803 --> 00:40:03.243
Joshua: Like actual Ares?

00:40:03.263 --> 00:40:04.203
Diego: Ares the god of war.

00:40:04.643 --> 00:40:05.083
Joshua: Oh, wow.

00:40:05.563 --> 00:40:05.783
Joshua: Yeah.

00:40:06.443 --> 00:40:13.803
Diego: Um, and so that's what leads to the Iron Patriot armor, which the MCU didn't do it this way, obviously, because they didn't have all this background.

00:40:13.823 --> 00:40:18.963
Diego: But in the Dark Reign storyline, like, or Norman Osborn is the one that wears that armor.

00:40:19.403 --> 00:40:23.743
Diego: And he becomes like a replacement of both Iron Man and Steve Rogers.

00:40:24.523 --> 00:40:34.163
Diego: And so, yeah, and then he gets Dakin, who is the son of Wolverine, and basically makes him become the Wolverine of that Avengers scene.

00:40:36.203 --> 00:40:37.243
Diego: He gets Venom.

00:40:37.923 --> 00:40:45.483
Diego: The person who was wearing the Venom symbiote at this point was the guy who Mark Gorgon, the guy who was a scorpion.

00:40:46.783 --> 00:40:54.683
Diego: And so he gets him and gives him like some chemicals to like make him take the shape of regular black symbiote Spider-Man.

00:40:55.123 --> 00:40:59.663
Diego: And he puts him as being Spider-Man in that Avengers theme.

00:40:59.683 --> 00:41:06.123
Diego: He gets Bullseye, the villain, and gets him to put on the Hawkeye costume, and he's his Hawkeye.

00:41:06.143 --> 00:41:09.923
Joshua: Wait, so he convinced all the villains to do this?

00:41:09.943 --> 00:41:10.303
Diego: Yeah.

00:41:10.683 --> 00:41:17.103
Diego: Because these were the Thunderbolts at this point, which are basically like the Suicide Squad of the Marvel Universe.

00:41:17.463 --> 00:41:22.843
Diego: And so he gets all these people and gets them to like basically pretend like they are heroes.

00:41:23.523 --> 00:41:26.863
Diego: It's a fantastic storyline, man.

00:41:26.883 --> 00:41:30.863
Diego: I can't believe that I never read it until recently, but I had a really good time with this story.

00:41:30.883 --> 00:41:43.063
Diego: But anyway, that's a really interesting one too, where like it's kind of like guys who used to be enemies suddenly being seen as heroes kind of thing.

00:41:43.683 --> 00:41:46.923
Diego: That's a kind of a different variation, I guess, of this in a way.

00:41:48.643 --> 00:41:50.463
Joshua: I'm still trying to figure out what it is.

00:41:50.663 --> 00:41:58.563
Joshua: What is the thing, the words in in order, like it's going to come to us in the most random way.

00:42:00.583 --> 00:42:05.123
Diego: Then there's a, let me see, I don't know, I have, I have a few other examples written down of this stuff.

00:42:05.123 --> 00:42:27.443
Diego: Like one interesting example that I couldn't really find, like, I can't, I don't think this is like a version, an official version of this trope, but it's the whole Terminator thing, where like Terminator 1, the Terminator machine, T1-T800, is sent back by Skynet, and he's trying to kill Sarah Connor, right?

00:42:29.903 --> 00:42:41.483
Diego: T2 Judgment Day, the T800 comes back, and now he's protecting John Connor, and then by relationship, he's now allied with Sarah Connor, right?

00:42:42.703 --> 00:42:58.403
Diego: But it's not the same T800, obviously, and it's a reprogrammed T800, reprogrammed by the humans, but it's the same exact actor, same exact look, same set of capabilities.

00:43:00.383 --> 00:43:01.303
Diego: So what is that?

00:43:02.523 --> 00:43:07.203
Diego: Because it technically is a rivals to allies.

00:43:07.563 --> 00:43:13.363
Joshua: Dukes, I feel like that's just the plot of Terminator.

00:43:14.103 --> 00:43:15.623
Joshua: That's not a trope, Dukes.

00:43:15.943 --> 00:43:18.423
Diego: You don't think there's any other examples of something like that?

00:43:18.443 --> 00:43:19.483
Joshua: Literally, no.

00:43:20.583 --> 00:43:21.523
Diego: Come on, man.

00:43:21.543 --> 00:43:21.963
Diego: Really?

00:43:24.503 --> 00:43:27.463
Joshua: What is the what if it were to be a trope?

00:43:27.643 --> 00:43:29.003
Joshua: What would the trope be?

00:43:29.703 --> 00:43:36.243
Diego: Like if we don't see the Terminator as a person, right?

00:43:36.823 --> 00:43:39.743
Diego: We see the Terminator as like technology.

00:43:41.123 --> 00:43:48.263
Diego: Is there such a thing as technology of some sort being that was an enemy to me?

00:43:49.823 --> 00:43:53.903
Diego: Or that was destructive to me before being turned to work for me?

00:43:55.843 --> 00:43:57.863
Joshua: I mean, it's a thing.

00:43:58.603 --> 00:43:59.943
Joshua: That's not a trope.

00:44:00.583 --> 00:44:01.363
Diego: Okay, how about this?

00:44:03.403 --> 00:44:12.523
Diego: In the Secret Wars comic book event, the one, one of the latest one, the latest, no, second to latest one, the one where it's Battle World with Doom.

00:44:12.543 --> 00:44:14.783
Joshua: Doctor Doom and Molecule Man.

00:44:14.983 --> 00:44:20.863
Diego: Yeah, Doctor Doom, Molecule Man and Stephen Strange, they're the ones that kind of reshaped this whole new world, right?

00:44:22.723 --> 00:44:36.863
Diego: Towards the end of that storyline, there's a moment when the heroes find out that within that entire Battle World, I forget the reason, but for some reason, the Infinity Gauntlet is there with the stones.

00:44:38.543 --> 00:44:43.963
Joshua: I feel like that wouldn't be that important.

00:44:44.343 --> 00:44:45.423
Diego: They're able to use it.

00:44:45.843 --> 00:44:46.123
Joshua: Oh.

00:44:46.403 --> 00:44:47.203
Diego: They're able to use it.

00:44:47.223 --> 00:44:51.023
Diego: Someone snaps and reshapes the whole thing.

00:44:51.143 --> 00:44:51.463
Joshua: Wait.

00:44:52.303 --> 00:44:55.283
Joshua: Oh, so the snap was used to...

00:44:55.903 --> 00:44:56.403
Diego: For good.

00:44:57.303 --> 00:45:00.743
Diego: I think it was T'Challa who was wielding it, the Infinity Gauntlet.

00:45:00.763 --> 00:45:02.423
Joshua: What was the snap used for?

00:45:02.443 --> 00:45:03.183
Joshua: What did it do?

00:45:03.203 --> 00:45:07.663
Diego: To basically reshape Battleworld into a brand new unified universe.

00:45:08.343 --> 00:45:15.623
Diego: But it was before, just with all the characters that had survived into Battleworld, now living in one same Marvel universe.

00:45:15.643 --> 00:45:20.463
Diego: And that's basically what established a new continuity going forward after that.

00:45:20.523 --> 00:45:27.443
Joshua: So like, all the characters, that version of...

00:45:29.503 --> 00:45:31.683
Joshua: No, that wasn't the first one.

00:45:33.543 --> 00:45:34.883
Diego: Yeah, so it was all the characters.

00:45:35.663 --> 00:45:39.143
Diego: It was selected characters from the Ultimate Universe of the comics.

00:45:39.383 --> 00:45:40.283
Joshua: Oh, wait, so that was...

00:45:40.303 --> 00:45:41.243
Diego: And from the 616.

00:45:41.263 --> 00:45:43.943
Joshua: That was the one that put together the Ultimate...

00:45:44.503 --> 00:45:45.723
Diego: Yeah, it was the one that combined them.

00:45:45.843 --> 00:45:49.783
Joshua: So they were characters from Ultimate Universe and 616?

00:45:50.423 --> 00:45:51.223
Joshua: Put you to the same...

00:45:51.243 --> 00:45:54.763
Diego: Yeah, that's how Miles Morales and Peter Parker came to be in the same universe.

00:45:54.783 --> 00:45:55.203
Joshua: Yeah.

00:45:57.443 --> 00:46:00.243
Diego: Miles Morales snuck a cheeseburger onto Battle World.

00:46:03.063 --> 00:46:08.003
Joshua: Wait, how did he know that he was going to go into Battle World?

00:46:08.023 --> 00:46:08.643
Diego: He didn't know.

00:46:09.143 --> 00:46:10.883
Joshua: Did he just have a cheeseburger on him?

00:46:10.903 --> 00:46:13.743
Diego: He had a cheeseburger in his Spider-Man suit in his pocket.

00:46:14.523 --> 00:46:16.223
Joshua: So they have pockets.

00:46:16.563 --> 00:46:17.403
Diego: They have pockets.

00:46:19.023 --> 00:46:22.783
Diego: He gave it, he fed it to Molecule Man, who was really hungry.

00:46:22.803 --> 00:46:24.383
Diego: He hadn't eaten in like centuries.

00:46:25.363 --> 00:46:26.203
Joshua: Centuries?

00:46:26.223 --> 00:46:26.503
Joshua: Yeah.

00:46:26.883 --> 00:46:28.843
Diego: And he asked them, he's like, do you guys have something to eat?

00:46:28.863 --> 00:46:30.683
Diego: And Peter's like, no, why would we have something to eat?

00:46:30.703 --> 00:46:33.103
Diego: And Miles was like, oh yeah, wait, hold on, I have a cheeseburger.

00:46:34.103 --> 00:46:35.623
Diego: And Peter's actually a really funny moment.

00:46:35.643 --> 00:46:38.243
Diego: And Peter's like, how do you have a cheeseburger?

00:46:39.403 --> 00:46:41.203
Diego: And he was like, don't judge me, bro.

00:46:41.223 --> 00:46:42.783
Diego: Like I'm a growing teenager.

00:46:42.803 --> 00:46:45.943
Diego: I have like cravings and I satisfy them with cheeseburgers.

00:46:45.963 --> 00:46:48.683
Diego: And he's like, no, no, no, like, how do you have a cheeseburger?

00:46:48.703 --> 00:46:54.483
Diego: You were in stasis for like eight months before we discovered you guys, like how in the world do you have a cheeseburger?

00:46:54.503 --> 00:46:57.103
Diego: And he's like, oh, no, yeah, it's an eight month old cheeseburger.

00:46:57.503 --> 00:46:58.483
Diego: Molecule Man ate it.

00:47:00.263 --> 00:47:01.263
Diego: He was really happy too.

00:47:02.263 --> 00:47:02.603
Diego: Yeah.

00:47:02.783 --> 00:47:10.503
Diego: He does some kind of favor for him actually at the end of the whole story, like before Molecule Man disappears after like the snap.

00:47:11.823 --> 00:47:13.763
Diego: He like does something for Miles.

00:47:13.783 --> 00:47:14.463
Diego: I forget what it is.

00:47:15.263 --> 00:47:17.363
Diego: But he does something to thank him for the cheeseburger.

00:47:18.743 --> 00:47:20.423
Diego: That's just to show you kids.

00:47:20.443 --> 00:47:25.323
Diego: Like you, if you have a chance to like stuff a cheeseburger in your trousers, you probably should.

00:47:26.443 --> 00:47:30.183
Diego: Who knows when you might be able to feed it to a very hungry person.

00:47:30.203 --> 00:47:31.003
Diego: I don't know, man.

00:47:31.023 --> 00:47:32.883
Diego: He pulled it out of his like pants or something.

00:47:32.903 --> 00:47:34.483
Diego: I don't know.

00:47:34.503 --> 00:47:36.083
Diego: Who knows these things?

00:47:36.983 --> 00:47:38.003
Diego: Who knows such things?

00:47:38.103 --> 00:47:38.703
Diego: Anyway, yeah.

00:47:38.723 --> 00:47:41.123
Joshua: That's one of the best enemies to allies.

00:47:42.283 --> 00:47:42.623
Diego: Yes.

00:47:43.583 --> 00:47:44.963
Joshua: Is Molecule Man a villain?

00:47:45.703 --> 00:47:47.643
Diego: Yeah, he's complicated.

00:47:48.563 --> 00:47:49.863
Diego: Like the dude is kind of...

00:47:50.743 --> 00:47:51.923
Joshua: Gross comedic, really.

00:47:54.583 --> 00:47:57.563
Diego: He's more of like an agent of chaos, in a way.

00:47:57.603 --> 00:48:01.243
Diego: It's not about good and evil for him.

00:48:01.263 --> 00:48:03.283
Diego: It's more about his own desires.

00:48:03.663 --> 00:48:08.043
Diego: So if his desires happen to align with heroes, he'll be aligned with heroes.

00:48:08.063 --> 00:48:10.243
Diego: And if they happen to align with a villain, he'll be aligned with a villain.

00:48:10.463 --> 00:48:11.883
Diego: And sometimes he's not with anybody.

00:48:11.903 --> 00:48:12.743
Joshua: So like Catwoman?

00:48:12.763 --> 00:48:14.783
Diego: Like Catwoman?

00:48:16.063 --> 00:48:19.543
Diego: Yes, but except that Duke King can control reality.

00:48:19.563 --> 00:48:22.243
Diego: So much more volatile and dangerous.

00:48:23.143 --> 00:48:30.183
Diego: But yeah, he's more of like, honestly, the dude is kind of on a god level, almost.

00:48:30.783 --> 00:48:41.643
Diego: When you really think about it, he's really at a level where unless the circumstance is drastically called for it, no one can really mess with him.

00:48:41.663 --> 00:48:44.123
Diego: He can literally disintegrate you just by thinking it.

00:48:44.303 --> 00:48:46.283
Joshua: Bro, Fred a cheeseburger to a god.

00:48:46.683 --> 00:48:49.703
Diego: Yeah, and then he made him into an ally again, bro.

00:48:49.723 --> 00:48:51.263
Diego: You know, rivals to allies and whatnot.

00:48:52.563 --> 00:48:54.643
Diego: Woody and Buzz, Toy Story.

00:48:55.243 --> 00:48:58.323
Joshua: That is definitely an example.

00:48:58.543 --> 00:48:58.943
Diego: It is.

00:48:59.183 --> 00:49:00.723
Diego: They started out like hating each other.

00:49:02.003 --> 00:49:02.163
Diego: Yeah.

00:49:02.443 --> 00:49:05.643
Diego: And that's actually, I think, an example of another category.

00:49:05.883 --> 00:49:18.243
Diego: I guess your conclusion is that technology going from ally, from rival, to ally is not a thing, even though I just gave you that whole Infinity Gauntlet example, which you made me detour in to talk about cheeseburgers.

00:49:18.583 --> 00:49:22.503
Joshua: Deux, but the cheeseburger thing was also an example.

00:49:23.103 --> 00:49:23.983
Diego: Of technology?

00:49:24.003 --> 00:49:24.443
Diego: You know what?

00:49:24.443 --> 00:49:25.623
Joshua: No, it wasn't.

00:49:25.643 --> 00:49:27.523
Joshua: It was an example of rival satellite.

00:49:27.743 --> 00:49:28.203
Diego: I guess.

00:49:29.643 --> 00:49:39.603
Diego: But Woody and Buzz, I think, are a good example of rivalries that are actually purely based on nonsense, like on just a misunderstanding, right?

00:49:40.003 --> 00:49:42.863
Diego: Or judging somebody wrong from the beginning.

00:49:42.883 --> 00:49:50.163
Diego: Is that really because all our philosophies clash, or we're from rival clans, or anything like that?

00:49:50.463 --> 00:49:55.023
Joshua: Woody and Buzz is basically Deku and Bakugo.

00:49:55.883 --> 00:49:56.263
Diego: What?

00:49:56.383 --> 00:49:56.663
Diego: Why?

00:49:56.683 --> 00:50:13.023
Joshua: Because theoretically, not even theoretically, the reason that Woody didn't like Buzz is because Andy stopped playing with Woody to start playing with Buzz, and he was jealous, basically.

00:50:13.043 --> 00:50:13.443
Diego: Yeah.

00:50:13.683 --> 00:50:21.943
Joshua: And with Bakugo and Deku, Bakugo thought of Deku as somebody who would never even be any competition.

00:50:22.383 --> 00:50:25.643
Joshua: And then when he gets one for all, and he starts to look more powerful.

00:50:25.663 --> 00:50:27.883
Diego: He gets the attention of all the teachers and stuff?

00:50:27.903 --> 00:50:28.303
Joshua: Yeah.

00:50:28.343 --> 00:50:31.283
Joshua: He becomes the star student of the whole entire school.

00:50:31.303 --> 00:50:32.143
Diego: Right, right, right.

00:50:32.163 --> 00:50:35.203
Diego: Yeah, that's a good example, I think.

00:50:35.223 --> 00:50:35.703
Diego: That's true.

00:50:35.803 --> 00:50:37.403
Diego: I hadn't really seen it that way.

00:50:37.423 --> 00:50:38.143
Diego: But yeah.

00:50:39.443 --> 00:50:50.143
Diego: But yeah, with Woody and Buzz, I feel like as soon as that initial misunderstanding or misconception is gone, there's just no reason to be allies or rivals anymore.

00:50:50.603 --> 00:50:52.083
Diego: And then from there on, they're like bros.

00:50:52.943 --> 00:50:53.323
Diego: Yeah.

00:50:54.003 --> 00:50:59.523
Joshua: Because in Toy Story 4, which is a movie that exists.

00:50:59.643 --> 00:51:00.723
Diego: It is.

00:51:02.303 --> 00:51:05.563
Joshua: They like when, OK, spoilers.

00:51:05.603 --> 00:51:06.943
Joshua: I don't know, he's been out for six years.

00:51:09.063 --> 00:51:23.043
Joshua: When Woody is staying at the antique shop with Bo Peep, and then they have to leave him there, Buzz and Woody share their final last goodbye.

00:51:23.503 --> 00:51:31.303
Joshua: And then when he leaves, Buzz is crying because they're like best friends ever since the first movie.

00:51:31.943 --> 00:51:32.903
Diego: They're bros.

00:51:34.663 --> 00:51:35.043
Joshua: Yeah.

00:51:35.063 --> 00:51:35.723
Diego: Toy bros.

00:51:38.163 --> 00:51:51.383
Diego: What about, is this a trope or like a version of this trope where you got like the brainwashed, the brainwashing causing the rivalry, and then as soon as the brainwashing is out of the way, you become allies?

00:51:52.363 --> 00:51:54.443
Diego: Is this kind of similar to Woody and Buzz?

00:51:54.623 --> 00:51:57.603
Diego: Think of Captain America and Winter Soldier, for example.

00:51:59.263 --> 00:52:03.903
Diego: Like as soon as the brainwashing is out from the other party, like you're back to being buddies.

00:52:05.263 --> 00:52:12.383
Joshua: Oh, like they were friends, and then one of them gets brainwashed, and then they get un-brainwashed, and then they're back to being friends?

00:52:12.403 --> 00:52:15.043
Diego: Not even necessarily that they had to be friends from beforehand.

00:52:15.063 --> 00:52:20.643
Diego: It's just like there is, the rivalry itself is caused by some sort of brainwashing or external control.

00:52:23.663 --> 00:52:24.863
Diego: I think that's kind of a thing.

00:52:25.703 --> 00:52:26.043
Joshua: Yeah.

00:52:26.763 --> 00:52:27.843
Diego: I think it's kind of a thing.

00:52:28.763 --> 00:52:41.503
Diego: Makes me think also of Gamora and Nebula, who used to be kind of like, maybe not brainwashed, but maybe to a degree brainwashed, but controlled by fear, by Thanos.

00:52:42.043 --> 00:52:48.183
Diego: And as soon as they were out from under that, they turned to being the allies of the people that they were fighting or whatever.

00:52:48.463 --> 00:52:50.903
Diego: I think that's another example.

00:52:51.383 --> 00:52:52.543
Diego: But yeah, I think there's something there.

00:52:52.543 --> 00:52:55.823
Diego: There's like a brainwashing or in a wrong ideology type thing.

00:52:55.983 --> 00:53:01.843
Diego: Shoot, even Magneto in the comics ends up being like joining the X-Men at one point, like not too long ago.

00:53:02.843 --> 00:53:04.223
Joshua: He joins the X-Men?

00:53:04.243 --> 00:53:07.683
Diego: Yeah, after Professor Xavier's dead, like he goes and joins the X-Men.

00:53:08.163 --> 00:53:10.323
Joshua: But that's literally the guy.

00:53:10.503 --> 00:53:11.623
Diego: Yeah, I know, exactly.

00:53:11.643 --> 00:53:13.263
Joshua: That's like the X-Men villain.

00:53:13.303 --> 00:53:22.483
Diego: He ends up like, I don't follow X-Men comics totally, so I'm like tangentially aware of storylines.

00:53:23.223 --> 00:53:36.003
Diego: And I know that after Xavier dies, that kind of brings him to reconsidering his stance about harmonious mutant rights and integration and that sort of thing.

00:53:36.663 --> 00:53:38.443
Diego: But yeah, so there's that.

00:53:40.523 --> 00:53:41.543
Diego: Any other examples, man?

00:53:41.563 --> 00:53:43.243
Diego: I got like Spider-Man in Venom as well.

00:53:43.263 --> 00:53:49.023
Diego: That's an interesting one that goes from rivalry to allies.

00:53:51.163 --> 00:53:55.783
Diego: In the most original storyline, it is also because of an external threat, because of Carnage.

00:53:56.423 --> 00:53:58.823
Diego: They have to team up to be able to defeat Carnage.

00:54:01.203 --> 00:54:05.343
Diego: But I think through that team up, they realize like there's no reason for us to be enemies.

00:54:05.363 --> 00:54:07.483
Diego: Like, you know, be cool, bro.

00:54:07.843 --> 00:54:09.003
Diego: Yeah, they become bros.

00:54:10.243 --> 00:54:10.803
Diego: That's not true.

00:54:10.823 --> 00:54:11.603
Diego: They don't become bros.

00:54:11.623 --> 00:54:16.323
Diego: It's actually that's a really weird alliance because of the fact that like the symbiote was attached to both of them.

00:54:16.343 --> 00:54:22.283
Diego: And so like it knows it's most everybody's most intimate secret was the venom attached.

00:54:22.303 --> 00:54:25.283
Joshua: Like, who was the person inside the venom at that time?

00:54:25.463 --> 00:54:25.963
Diego: Eddie Brock.

00:54:26.163 --> 00:54:26.903
Diego: Oh, yeah.

00:54:28.483 --> 00:54:33.283
Diego: So that's a that's another example, I guess, of like a threat uniting the two.

00:54:33.523 --> 00:54:37.423
Diego: But then I think after that, for the most part, there's been a peace.

00:54:38.643 --> 00:54:44.383
Diego: There hasn't really been any kind of rivalry after that point between them that I can think of in the comics, at least.

00:54:45.763 --> 00:54:48.283
Diego: Um, recently, we watched the Aquaman 2 movie.

00:54:50.803 --> 00:54:51.303
Diego: We did.

00:54:52.443 --> 00:54:54.563
Diego: Apparently, the majority of the world did not.

00:54:55.903 --> 00:54:58.183
Diego: They just pooped all over that movie.

00:54:59.043 --> 00:54:59.683
Joshua: It wasn't.

00:55:00.463 --> 00:55:01.223
Diego: It wasn't terrible.

00:55:01.243 --> 00:55:02.983
Joshua: It wasn't that bad.

00:55:03.163 --> 00:55:04.203
Diego: It wasn't terrible.

00:55:04.863 --> 00:55:07.043
Diego: Like, it was watchable once.

00:55:07.423 --> 00:55:09.923
Diego: I'm not going to go rewatch it any anytime ever.

00:55:11.003 --> 00:55:16.483
Diego: But that's another one where there's rivals to allies staying with Aquaman.

00:55:16.503 --> 00:55:24.283
Diego: Neymar has to team up with the Ocean Master, which I guess is not really Ocean Master because he never wears the armor, which is really unfortunate.

00:55:24.303 --> 00:55:24.803
Diego: But whatever.

00:55:25.103 --> 00:55:28.283
Joshua: He wore he wore the armor like once in the first movie, right?

00:55:28.643 --> 00:55:31.203
Diego: You know, he had it on for a while in that movie.

00:55:31.783 --> 00:55:41.243
Diego: But I think as soon as he became Ocean Master, remember when he got like the the authority from all the kingdom heads and all that stuff, like as soon as that happened, he started wearing that armor.

00:55:41.263 --> 00:55:42.763
Diego: And he was like, I am the Ocean Master.

00:55:43.663 --> 00:55:45.523
Diego: But yeah, he didn't wear it in the second one.

00:55:46.303 --> 00:55:46.923
Diego: Just too bad.

00:55:49.203 --> 00:55:50.263
Diego: I am Aquaman.

00:55:52.123 --> 00:55:52.703
Joshua: He is.

00:55:52.723 --> 00:55:54.103
Diego: That's how that movie ended.

00:55:54.123 --> 00:55:54.743
Diego: No, I'm sorry.

00:55:55.103 --> 00:55:57.483
Diego: The movie ended by a man eating the cockroach.

00:55:57.943 --> 00:55:59.983
Joshua: It did end by a man eating the cockroach.

00:56:00.263 --> 00:56:03.863
Diego: Needless to say, if you didn't watch Aquaman 2, you didn't miss much.

00:56:05.143 --> 00:56:06.023
Diego: You didn't miss much.

00:56:06.563 --> 00:56:08.763
Joshua: The villain in that movie was so good.

00:56:09.123 --> 00:56:09.903
Diego: It was horrible.

00:56:10.723 --> 00:56:12.023
Joshua: He literally didn't even get to-

00:56:12.043 --> 00:56:12.723
Diego: Known name villain.

00:56:12.783 --> 00:56:13.943
Diego: Do you remember his name?

00:56:14.283 --> 00:56:14.583
Joshua: No.

00:56:14.683 --> 00:56:15.163
Diego: Exactly.

00:56:15.183 --> 00:56:19.903
Joshua: He didn't get to walk a single step off of his throne before he died.

00:56:20.323 --> 00:56:21.063
Diego: It was pathetic.

00:56:21.083 --> 00:56:21.763
Joshua: That's crazy.

00:56:21.903 --> 00:56:22.803
Diego: It was so sad.

00:56:23.423 --> 00:56:24.183
Diego: It was so sad.

00:56:24.243 --> 00:56:29.103
Diego: Aquaman defeated him with the splitting of the arrow with another arrow thing, basically.

00:56:29.683 --> 00:56:30.603
Diego: Except it was tridents.

00:56:31.283 --> 00:56:31.623
Diego: Yeah.

00:56:31.803 --> 00:56:40.543
Diego: Anyway, I think last words from me about this topic, I think there's just something about-

00:56:40.943 --> 00:56:56.123
Diego: There's a grandeur to me about the idea of two people or two individuals who have been in a stalemate against each other, redirecting both their energies in one same direction.

00:56:56.263 --> 00:57:00.363
Diego: That to me is just, oh man, it is such a satisfying storyline.

00:57:00.663 --> 00:57:03.323
Joshua: Tell me if this is an example of it.

00:57:03.823 --> 00:57:07.883
Joshua: Because you might be like, that's acoustic.

00:57:08.743 --> 00:57:09.943
Diego: Does it involve cheeseburgers?

00:57:10.123 --> 00:57:10.743
Joshua: No, it doesn't.

00:57:11.203 --> 00:57:12.183
Joshua: It does not involve-

00:57:12.203 --> 00:57:14.883
Joshua: I don't even know if cheeseburgers exist in this universe.

00:57:16.163 --> 00:57:19.883
Joshua: In God of War, the newest one, Yeah.

00:57:20.203 --> 00:57:21.883
Joshua: at the beginning, it's okay.

00:57:21.903 --> 00:57:25.463
Joshua: This is a very lesser degree of this example.

00:57:25.783 --> 00:57:39.083
Joshua: But in God of War, at the beginning of the 2018 game, like Kratos and Atreus, they didn't really have a connection like that.

00:57:39.403 --> 00:57:40.403
Joshua: Right.

00:57:40.923 --> 00:57:45.263
Joshua: The point of the whole journey was them basically connecting.

00:57:45.663 --> 00:57:51.543
Joshua: That wasn't the point, but that's the main thing that ended up coming out of that story, basically.

00:57:51.983 --> 00:57:57.183
Joshua: And I feel like they were kind of like opposed to each other.

00:57:57.263 --> 00:57:58.263
Diego: Yeah, I can see where you're going.

00:57:59.003 --> 00:58:00.803
Diego: I can see where you're going with that.

00:58:03.063 --> 00:58:10.443
Diego: I think that is like an example of this because, man, I wish I could...

00:58:10.903 --> 00:58:12.563
Diego: There's other examples of that.

00:58:13.183 --> 00:58:14.383
Diego: Oh, here's another example.

00:58:14.403 --> 00:58:17.603
Diego: It's very similar to that, Damian Wayne and Bruce Wayne.

00:58:17.623 --> 00:58:29.223
Diego: I remember in the comics, when Damian Wayne got taken to him, he had zero interest in learning from him, obeying him, working with him, anything.

00:58:29.263 --> 00:58:32.203
Diego: All he wanted to do was basically prove that he was better.

00:58:32.223 --> 00:58:47.483
Diego: And it was through many events, one of which was a storyline where this one dude who was, I forget who he was, but he was a pretty cool character.

00:58:48.063 --> 00:58:56.903
Diego: But he was trying to seduce Damian into seeing him as his leader, instead of Batman, because...

00:58:56.983 --> 00:58:57.763
Joshua: In the comics?

00:58:57.763 --> 00:58:58.623
Diego: Yeah, in the comics.

00:58:58.943 --> 00:59:00.143
Diego: I remember in the New 52.

00:59:00.323 --> 00:59:02.103
Joshua: In a movie, it was like that.

00:59:03.143 --> 00:59:04.143
Diego: Oh, yeah, that's right.

00:59:04.283 --> 00:59:05.383
Joshua: Is it the same storyline?

00:59:05.723 --> 00:59:08.763
Diego: Yeah, it's a dude with some lenses or something in his mask.

00:59:08.783 --> 00:59:10.543
Joshua: Yeah, wait, was he...

00:59:10.563 --> 00:59:12.843
Joshua: In the comics, was he part of the Quarter Vowels, too?

00:59:13.983 --> 00:59:15.063
Diego: Yes, it was.

00:59:15.083 --> 00:59:16.103
Diego: It was a talent.

00:59:16.123 --> 00:59:17.623
Joshua: Yeah, so it was the same.

00:59:17.643 --> 00:59:19.003
Diego: Yeah, that's what it is.

00:59:19.023 --> 00:59:19.563
Diego: That's what it is.

00:59:19.583 --> 00:59:20.283
Diego: We're absolutely right.

00:59:20.503 --> 00:59:23.043
Diego: Yeah, they pulled that right from the New 52 comics.

00:59:23.203 --> 00:59:26.243
Diego: And yeah, that's a cool storyline.

00:59:26.263 --> 00:59:30.423
Diego: It was the ultimate test of whether Damian was going to end up becoming...

00:59:30.443 --> 00:59:43.643
Diego: I mean, letting his philosophical differences with his father, the fact that he had probably hatred for him because he was never a part of his life, and many other factors.

00:59:44.043 --> 00:59:52.483
Diego: He was going to let that take over and basically turn him into a rival instead of his Robin or embrace the whole thing.

00:59:52.503 --> 00:59:58.723
Diego: And so yeah, I think that's a similar example to what you were saying with the cheeseburger.

00:59:58.763 --> 01:00:00.543
Diego: I'm kidding, what was it that you just said?

01:00:00.563 --> 01:00:01.763
Diego: Atreus, thank you, yeah.

01:00:02.343 --> 01:00:03.803
Joshua: The cheeseburger.

01:00:04.103 --> 01:00:08.623
Diego: There's like, not a rivalry, but a resentment, right?

01:00:09.283 --> 01:00:16.663
Diego: At the beginning of those stories that is splitting the two people, and then the journey unites them, right?

01:00:19.483 --> 01:00:20.763
Diego: I think we should go get a cheeseburger.

01:00:21.103 --> 01:00:22.503
Joshua: I think honestly we should.

01:00:22.503 --> 01:00:22.903
Diego: Let's go.

01:00:31.273 --> 01:00:35.693
Diego: Thank you all for listening to this episode on rivals to allies.

01:00:35.713 --> 01:00:37.093
Diego: This was a really cool discussion.

01:00:37.453 --> 01:00:41.033
Diego: Really interesting how many different examples of this stuff there is.

01:00:41.233 --> 01:00:54.553
Joshua: Yeah, and it's really interesting how I spent the second half of this episode trying to figure out what the word is when you have a bunch of different words and take the first letter of every word.

01:00:55.053 --> 01:01:03.113
Joshua: And then in between, in our break, my father just randomly said it's called an acronym.

01:01:03.393 --> 01:01:05.193
Diego: I told you it was going to come to me out of nowhere.

01:01:05.293 --> 01:01:06.373
Joshua: It did come to you out of nowhere.

01:01:06.393 --> 01:01:07.053
Diego: It's an acronym.

01:01:07.073 --> 01:01:08.113
Joshua: That's what it is.

01:01:08.113 --> 01:01:08.933
Joshua: It's an acronym.

01:01:08.953 --> 01:01:10.453
Diego: I think we both failed English today.

01:01:10.533 --> 01:01:11.973
Joshua: I think we did, honestly.

01:01:12.313 --> 01:01:13.533
Diego: But thank you all for listening.

01:01:13.553 --> 01:01:21.713
Diego: And remember, if you want to find out about us, if you want to be able to subscribe to our YouTube channel, subscribe to following the podcast on your favorite podcast platform.

01:01:21.933 --> 01:01:24.453
Diego: You can do all those things over in our website.

01:01:24.473 --> 01:01:26.933
Diego: That is geekology101.com.

01:01:27.233 --> 01:01:31.653
Diego: Also, if you want to hit us up all the way at the bottom, there's a way of contacting us or...

01:01:31.913 --> 01:01:38.793
Joshua: If you want to hit us up through more traditional means, you can contact us at g101podcast at gmail.com.

01:01:38.953 --> 01:01:41.793
Diego: Thank you all for listening, and we'll catch you in the next episode.

01:01:42.353 --> 01:01:44.553
Joshua: Acronym, also cheeseburger.

01:01:44.813 --> 01:01:45.613
Diego: You beat me to it.

01:01:45.633 --> 01:01:45.653
Joshua: Okay.